PVP Updates - All points considered
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Do you enjoy PVP?

Yes very much!
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On occasion
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Only to defend myself
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Care bear stare!
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Joined: 22nd Jul 2014
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19th Nov

I think we're ready to start talking through and thinking about changes that could be made to PVP to make it more balanced and fun. For the last year my focus has been almost entirely on PVM, and I think that's understandable considering our charter. But what makes this shard different than a Trammel shard is the ability to opt in to PVP when you choose to, whether it be venturing into a known PVP enabled zone or engaging in guild wars. Factions have been temporarily suspended but I do have plans for that to be reintroduced and I'll cover those plans below. Ultimately this post is intended to discuss all things PVP, so settle in cause it's a big topic, and one I'm not well versed on at all. So I am absolutely dependent on your views and opinions on this. All ideas will be considered and weighed but I'll stress one point, be careful what you wish for as you may get it.

BALANCE
There are some issues when it comes to balance between the content released for PVM and how it affects PVP. For example, in my early days I was anxious to create special items that people could find and loot on monsters, like the Blackthorn's sword for example. In my naivety I did not consider certain aspects of this weapon such as it's durability or power/speed in terms of PVP. I own that mistake. There are other items like that and they should all be factored in when discussing balance. 

Another balance issue that was brought up was the risk for melee associated with bringing their best gear to a pvp area, whereas tamers don't need optimal gear most of the time. While I understand the concern, I'm not sure this is anything unique or new to the risks generally associated with PVP. My care bear assumption is that melee is better for PVP and that is what balances the risk, but what do you think?

It was also recently discovered that there is a skill penalty for murderers with a kill count above 5, as well as the usual stat loss. I've never heard of that kind of penalty anywhere so my first reaction was to seek it out and remove it, but then I realized that the only penalty remaining would be stat loss which is easily rectified with a stat ball (available by rolling a new toon or recently on the gold sink vendor). So not really a big penalty there. I believe that a penalty is necessary as it is a risk associated with the PK playstyle. That's pretty well established anywhere you go. My question on this is, if not a skill penalty (which could be pretty harsh) then what would be some other approaches?

PVP ZONES
Assuming we've addressed all things balance and everyone is relatively content with that side of PVP, let's talk zones. It has always been my intention to provide multiple PVP zones as the population/demand warranted. Most recently my thought was to create a PVP zone around the Barracoon champ spawn to introduce an element of risk for over camping/soloing that champ. That's just one idea, but let's hear your ideas...whether it be about that or any other areas you feel are good candidates.

FACTIONS
All I can say right now is that the intention is the revamp the faction system so that people can fight anywhere, any time, without having to be in opposing guilds. With that said I'm open to suggestions.

TOURNAMENT and/or DUEL
I've kept this on the back burner for a while but I think it's time to bring it up since we're on the topic. This is a very loose concept at this point and is subject to great change depending on this discussion. So feel free to throw out ideas and suggestions for additional features, etc. 

I'd like to create a system by which people can opt into a PVP via a registration stone. There would be a menu with some options to sign up for a duel or tournament and when the requisite number of players sign up they are transported to the arena in T2A. Other players not participating in PVP would be able to type a command to go and watch the fights from the stands. Other options from the menu might be things like loot/no loot, pot/no pot, prize money, or designating a specific time for the fight to start (assuming enough players sign up). Players would not be permitted to report their killers as murderers while participating in this event or place a bounty on their heads (did you know there is a bounty system?). When the fight is over an announcement could be displayed globally for the winner. The arena is rather small so I'm really thinking of this in terms of 1v1 style combat.

This would be a rather complex system that would probably have to be written from scratch, which is why it's been on the list for a long time and may remain on the list for a good while. I'm just putting this out there now while we're on the topic of PVP to solicit ideas.
Last Edit: 19th Nov by Abracadabra
Joined: 5th Jun
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19th Nov


PVP ZONES

My thought on this topic, and perhaps to all pvp, is why not just have an "opt in to pvp" menu. Then those that want can have pvp anytime, anywhere they want. Remove the pvp zone in bucs. Dont have zones at all....just make those that dont opt in via the menu invulnerable to pvp attacks?  You know.....this sounds an awful like the faction system......(two birds with one stone). Remove pvp zones. Balance and re implement factions. Those that want it, have it....those that dont, wont. ez pz.


TOURNAMENT and/or DUEL

Sounds neat! I'd set in the stands and place bets!
Joined: 12th Jan
Rank: --
Likes 30
19th Nov

There is not, and has not, been enough people on the server to warrant attention to happenstance pvp. Not to mention, in my case and I imagine the majority of the others came here to avoid it in the first place.

If you want to focus on pvp, the chaos/order system would probably be a good place to start, since it can accommodate smaller crowds. Perhaps give spawn related incentives to joining chaos/order instead of changing coon for everyone.

I haven't attempted Champs in 6 months, but the reason why we didn't attempt the other spawns was the unreasonably dense spawn, aside from the spider champ. We only managed to down nierra because there was a fat wall cutting the spawn in half and we exploited it. We attempted rikktor 3 times, including the time EVERYONE showed up thanks to a give away we did for the stream--which btw we couldn't get past 2nd level. We didn't attempt semidar because I still had her skull from the dungeon champ days. If you make coon, the player's foothold on champ spawns, harder to do, they're just going to stop doing t2a champs altogether.
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Last Edit: 19th Nov by Super Hamsters
Joined: 22nd Jul 2014
Rank: Moderator
Likes 157
19th Nov

Hibbi - the difference is factions don't ever turn off. You even have to wait 3 days to opt out. Where as with the PVP zone when you step in you are implicitly opting into PVP. This isn't really any different than those shards with two facets except having a whole facet for PVP just doesn't work because the odds of running into someone to kill is so small it feels like a waste of time. In this case, you know just where to look and we can all share the same map.
Joined: 22nd Jul 2014
Rank: Moderator
Likes 157
19th Nov

Hamster - totally agree that there isn't a huge urgency on this topic. I'm just putting it out there for discussion so that when we do get around to addressing it (which I feel is an eventuality) we'll already know what direction to take. That's all.

Chaos/Order - yes that's probably where Factions will end up. But again open to other suggestions.
Joined: 25th Oct 2016
Rank: Moderator
Likes 7
19th Nov

I’m more curious on why people dislike pvp. I think if we can address those concerns it might be easier to bring in pvp situations.

Most commonly I hear that people dislike losing their gear to another player. If that is the only concern, we can loot at making pvp a “no loot” situation and offer other incentives to pvp (kill points for rewards, etc.)

Personally, I loved the risk of having my spawns invaded. I enjoyed defending the spawns and working together to fight off the attackers.

I didn’t like losing my melee suits, uber gear, etc.

So, I’m curious to hear what would make pvp enjoyable or at least acceptable to those who are normally not inclined.
Joined: 5th Jun
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19th Nov

@Ravenwolfe personally I dont like pvp because when I play UO- I do it to chill. I do it to unwind after my days labor.

Fighting another player has always pumped my body full of adrenaline. I get all shaky and nervous. It doesnt relax me in the least bit. In the end, I lose- and that makes me angry as I sit there and watch them dig through my stuff, cut off my head, and go on to their next kill. I've always been this way- be it UO, or Halo, or COD....doesnt matter....I hate pvp lol.

I fully realize this is a PERSONAL thing. I'm in my 30's, why the hell should I get so agitated over it???? I dont know, but I do. So at risk of repeating myself, I just dont like pvp personally....and I dont want to have to fear it because I want to play on a server where I like everything else that's going on.
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Joined: 25th Oct 2016
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19th Nov

Totally understandable Hibbi. Some people like adrenaline, some people don’t. Sometimes I like to chill in the game as well. It’s probably why I played on Atlantic and Siege. Siege when I wanted the adrenaline, Atlantic when I just wanted to Zen.

Probably why I’m a fan of pvp “spots”
Joined: 10th Oct
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Likes 13
19th Nov

Balance:
As long as these weapons exist, those with them will come out ahead in PvP. Always and forever. No mage, no matter how good you are, can do anything but run against someone with Blackthorn's Sword. That item alone will turn melee v. mage pvp in to running simulator 2k17 for the mage.

Melee was used in pvp because the characters were easy to level, but mages have by and far always been the most powerful and versatile pvpers. As for tamers being useful in pvp, you have never seen a bolo tamer that knows what they are doing. That's about the only build mage wise that could stand to a melee with Blackthorn's.

The skill penalty for reds has almost always been a part of UO and IMO should stay. They only way you get stat loss is if you resurrect with more than 5 short term murder counts. At 8 hours per count, that character can stay OOC until they burn off their counts IMO. You want to kill innocents, pay the price.

PVP Zones:
Instead of turning Coon in to a pvp zone to discourage solo farming it just make it not possible to get 115 or 120 power scrolls from him anymore. That lets newer players experience the intro champ and still be rewarded for their efforts, and keeps those with level 8+ evos on two accounts from constantly farming him for 120 scrolls. Yes, I'm talking about you Baloo.

I do like the idea of pvp areas with a reward for the risk. Like those in Bucs. The apples, etc. If there was a dungeon converted like this with higher rewards from the creatures I would hunt there. This is where we need to learn lessons from other servers. AFK dead characters need to be teleported out of the dungeon after two minutes to prevent "ghost caming" and you should not be able to recall/gate in to or out of the dungeon. This will prevent PKs from rolling up on hot-spots through a gate and ganking people. They will have to come in the front door. It will also prevent the victim from running and recalling out right away giving the PKs a chance to get a kill.

Factions:
Please bring these back. Factions are an awesome opt-in form of PvP. I'm not sure what about them needs changed, they have been the same and working for years.

Tourney:
A tourney stone would be really cool. I would like to see this, but based on the, as of the time of writing this, 5 votes for care bear; I would say your time would be better spent on PvE content.
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Joined: 10th Nov
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19th Nov

Personally, I joined this server because it was advertised as a PVM server. There is nothing fun in my opinion of working hard on a champ/mob pack only to have a group of reds come in and kill-steal it. I'm with you @HibbiGibbi -- I don't like it and wouldn't do any content where I was worried about it.
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Joined: 12th Jan
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19th Nov

" I'm just putting it out there for discussion so that when we do get around to addressing it (which I feel is an eventuality) we'll already know what direction to take. That's all."

When the time comes, I'd imagine the solution will be easy to grasp. Your server is a haven for trammies(like me). The only pvp we like is consensual and relatively safe. If a griefer popped up out of the blue (no pun intended), and we knew who it was, they'd get ostracized immediately.

"I'm more curious on why people dislike pvp"

Nobody dislikes pvp. We dislike griefing. That's an important distinction and why we're on this server. Don't think of us as UO players, think of us as refugees from the bigger, more well known servers.

Griefing is a playstyle in UO. That was(mostly) changed with UO:R, but reverted with the introduction of fel champ spawns. Introducing pvp zones would be a waste of time because we wouldn't use them. Changing popular content that's already in place into pvp zones would alienate your current player base.
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Last Edit: 19th Nov by Super Hamsters
Joined: 14th Oct 2016
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20th Nov

NO for PvP! PvM for life!

I don't like any sort of PvP, Reds, PK's, Losing Gear etc.
I just want to enjoy the game and run freely in the woods without thinking if some moron hiding and waiting for me in the bush to kill me, I've enough creatures that can kill me and lose my stuff.
Don't really see a reason for it to be a "thing", people (including me) joined this shard in order to avoid PvP, that's why it's limited to Buck's, Although, It's making me to avoid this area and not to do Quests or Treasure Maps in Buck's area, just because I don't want to interact with no red.
And it's not just because someone can kill me and steal my stuff, It's just the idea of someone killing someone else for no logical reason, keep it in Buck's.


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Joined: 20th Jan
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20th Nov

Ive seen several references to rewards for PvP. Lets face it, the reward for PvP is killing you and taking any good shit you had on you. PvP has always been the main driving force of economy in UO and why it did so well. In WoW, once you grind for 10000 hrs and get best armor and weps in game, you never worry again. UO doesnt require that much of a grind because the risk of losing it is always there.

I always hated getting griefed by PvPers. Killed for no reason and just camped any time i try to get gear back, that was the worst. Or unable to enjoy a camp because it was popular and PKers always roam by every 10min. IMHO, PvP zones or making Order/Chaos a better system. I feel alot of people avoid factions because the inability to interact with nonfactioners is so debilitating. Remove that and it could start factions being good again.
Joined: 25th Oct 2016
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21st Nov

QuoteIve seen several references to rewards for PvP. Lets face it, the reward for PvP is killing you and taking any good shit you had on you. 
I think the idea was to have a reward for pvp instead of them looting you. Have pvp as no looting, and instead they get something else.

With a zone style pvp, we could have you and your corpse ejected from the zone so you cant be looted or rez killed. That should stop the two major sources of griefing. The PK gains something (rank, points) for the kill. Make something attractive about the zone to make people want to go.

Risk v Reward.

Im tne last person to want to force anyone into pvp, just trying to think of ways to add more dimension to the game.
...

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Joined: 22nd Jul 2014
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24th Nov

Well it sounds like my brilliant idea for a PVP zone around barracoon has been shot down. Ahh well - but it did sound like there'd be some interest in the pvp tourney system, especially if it was just for fun. Could always put in a loot/no loot option when you set it up. I'll take that back and think through it a bit more. Probably won't see that for sometime though. Thanks everyone for the good discussion.
Joined: 8th Sep
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26th Nov

Well.. As it will come to no shock to anyone that knows me. I very much enjoy PvP.. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy other mechanics in the game as well. But AI can be challenging. But Fighting real people is much more challenging. I'm very much into "honest" pvp.. Not looting etc. I just for fun! Something different. I do like some of the suggestions like making yourself open to pvp if another person does the same. Like guild wars. Or just arenas that i'm more than happy to spend hours designing. The balance part...If you did arenas..maybe it should just be 7 skills and equal stats. lvl playing field so to speak. So many options.
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